Re: Book on use of electronic networks for democracy [cr-95/10/25]


Sender: •••@••.••• (Kurt Guntheroth)

>Direct democracy will *only* come about in this country at this time as an
>intensely manipulative system of using "public opinion" by a social science
>elite (i.e. technocrats) to pressure "elected" governments to act.  Period.

>I remain convinced that the "grassroots" efforts to promote
>direct/hyper/participatory democracy will inevitably be hijacked by these
>characters.  They must be stopped now or we're all in for one hell of a

>Mark Stahlman

This is a familiar refrain for Mr Stahlman.  What I'd like to hear him talk
about is how as a group we should go about thwarting this conspiracy?  What
actions would make it impossible/difficult/slightly harder for these alleged
perpetrators to perpetrate their vision of the future on us?  What is the
system we want to see in place?  Does cyberspace play a role in this plan or
is this posting fundamentally an off-topic rant?

(I'm not merely baiting Mr Stahlman.  I actually want to know what he thinks
we should be doing, esp. in context of cyber-rights).


Sender: LECLERC YVES <•••@••.•••>

Mark Stahlman,

Rejectings out of hand interesting ideas and innovative solutions to our
problems because they *could* be hijacked by the opposition seems to be a
passion with you. 

Can't you look at them on their own merits? Once we've decided on their 
value, then is the time to see how we can keep them from being distorted 
or used in manipulative ways.

Yves Leclerc          Dead-End Democracy? or open-ended government...
<•••@••.•••>    Montreal, Quebec


Sender: octobersdad <•••@••.•••>

In your message dated Tuesday 31, October 1995 you wrote :
> Sender: Mark Stahlman (via RadioMail) <•••@••.•••>
> Charles (et al):
> You might as well puke now and get it over with.  Maybe it will clear your
> Direct democracy will *only* come about in this country at this time as an
> intensely manipulative system of using "public opinion" by a social science
> elite (i.e. technocrats) to pressure "elected" governments to act.  Period.
> Grossman and his frightening book is just the beginning.  How about Jim
> Lehrer's new "democracy" TV show?  Or, Perot's non-party to destroy all
> parties (i.e. destroy the institutions of representative democracy)?  Or,
> all the post-partisan positioning by ex-Democrats.  You don't think that
> John John Kennedy has missed the boat with his new magazine "George" do
> you?  Not him, he's a seasoned sailor (and he sold the first issue out in
> days).


Perhaps it's late.

Maybe I'm just too old.


But, do me a favour and put the message in English please. I think,
really I do, think I got the jist of what you're saying in your ever
so with it jargon. And no surprise, I totally agree with you. But
you're not going to persuade many of "the people" if you talk like
"one of them" (the posers, the celebrities and image doctors) instead
of "like one of us".

This is not a flame, as I said, I think I agree wiht you. It's just a very much
hoped for wish that you please talk to us in language we can all understand
rather than "withit" speak or whatever it's called.

As far as the message, let's disregard the style at this point, the
first signs of this decay showed up not too long after JFKI was
elected. His good looks convinced all too many political "gurus" that
that's how he won the election, and they may have been right. They
however took it as gospel and within 10 years you couldn't get elected
let alone nominated for electoral office unless you were a greek god
or goddess.

Many of us saw it coming then, too bad we were right^H^H^H^H^Hcorrect.


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